This object is in archive! 

Automate groups - knockout transition

Avram Florin shared this idea 3 years ago
Under Consideration

In Champions League we have a group stage with knockout of the finalist (best 2 of every group). Currently JoomSport supports manual knockout entering but does not have option to continue the stage automatically. It would be nice to have fully automatic system that transfers teams from group stage to knockout

Comments (12)

photo
1

We did think about auto stages but practically it is extremely hard to design the structure that would be flexible. Too many cases and this is just a one of them when two teams going through the group stage to the knockout.

photo
1

Ok if doing this directory is too hard lets find a way to make it easier to set up the knockout stage based on the information received form the group stages, lets call it semi-automatic :)

photo
1

Avram, thanks for the suggestion at this stage. Let's keep collecting feedback for this feature. If many clients think this is something that would make their life easier we will get back and think what we can offer to improve this part of the software. Thanks!

photo
2

Hi everyone. As i see people are still voting for this case. Does anybody have a good suggestion how shall we code the script so it get easier to manage it? I have two major problems in fact planning this particular feature:

- system doesn't know when the group stage is finished. How it shall identify the moment when team shall be forwarded to knockout?

- how system shall identify the rules of teams distribution? So we form correct knockout?

Any ideas appreciated.

photo
1

Hello,

- system doesn't know when the group stage is finished. How it shall identify the moment when team shall be forwarded to knockout?

For this we can make a rule if match played equal to number of teams - 1 them fw first 2 teams from each group

- how system shall identify the rules of teams distribution? So we form correct knock-out

This can be set at start for example you have 4 Groups A B C D with a total of 8 teams A1 A2 B1 B2 C1 C2 D1 D2 so the next stage will be A1 vs B2 B1 vs C2 C1 vs D2 C1 vs A2. This stage dosnt need to be random.

photo
1

As Avram suggested, the knockout stage qualifying rules can be set up as part of the Season configuration.

If the total number of groups means a number of third teams in a group may qualify for the knockout stage, use the current ranking system in season configuration to decide who goes through.

For example, 6 Groups of 4 teams being reduced to 16 in the knockout stage, top 2 go through in whatever match-up we want (as Avram suggested) and the 4 best third placed teams out of 6 go through a well.

Instead of manually matching the the teams up in the knockout stage in season configuration it could be automatically generated, so using the 8 teams in Avram's post the match up could be A1 v C2, B1 v A2, C1 v D2 and D1 v B2.

If teams in third place are needed (as in my example), the automatic generation would use T1, T2, T3 and T4 to identify the 4 third placed teams in order of ranking qualification.

photo
2

>>For this we can make a rule if match played equal to number of teams - 1 them fw first 2 teams from each group

What is tournament have two rounds where each team plays two times with each team... or even more. Don't think the rule is good enough.

>>This can be set at start for example you have 4 Groups A B C D with a total of 8 teams A1 A2 B1 B2 C1 C2 D1 D2 so the next stage will be A1 vs B2 B1 vs C2 C1 vs D2 C1 vs A2. This stage dosnt need to be random.

It cannot be random as it will make it useless. On the other hand you operate by places numbers from the group like "a1, a2". System doesn't know how many teams play in each group (if they were actually finally added). As Richard additionally noticed in some cases there is ability to have knockout stages for qualifying to the final knockout what brings a lot of additional difficulties.


SO, I mean I like the idea but almost every group+knockout tournament is different. I understand WHAT but don't know HOW. We can adjust software to specific tournament like Champs league but it will be useless for others. So far i don't see any specific improvements that we actually can implement in this area to be multi-functional.

At the same as far as I see that we are trying to optimize a single moment - you want knockout stage to be created automatically. That is normally 5-10 minutes work. If we create some rules option it might take admins even more configuring all them for specific tournament.

photo
1

OK I understand, in which case don't try to do the impossible with so many combinations for different tournaments and as the main problem is to identify who qualifies, not the draw for the knockout stages, keep it simple and approach from a different direction.

Try this................

Every tournament has a Season Administrator who sets up the rules and (I presume) will add them in the description areas you have provided for a Season.

Therefore he/she knows how it works.

Process

Add a 'Group Stage Complete' Button.

When the Season Administrator or another authorised person clicks on the button, a pop up (or whatever you wish as output) shows a list of all the teams in the groups and he/she selects the teams that are going through, then clicks Submit.

When Submit is clicked, JoomSport creates the Knockout Stage automatically.

It may have minimal manual intervention, but is simple, allows the Season Administrator to review and keep control and only goes to the Knockout stage when he/she wants to.

If you try to set up a complicated automatic process to fit every scenario, control is lost and you may be creating more problems for JoomSport support if something in the complicated process does not work properly (and in software there is always that risk).

You could add a seeding column in the pop up if required or any other adjustment/restriction, but again, the more you include the more complicated it gets.

Keep it simple, it will only take a minute to select the clubs and click submit.

photo
2

>>When the Season Administrator or another authorised person clicks on the button, a pop up (or whatever you wish as output) shows a list of all the teams in the groups and he/she selects the teams that are going through, then clicks Submit. When Submit is clicked, JoomSport creates the Knockout Stage automatically.

Sorry Richard, but here I really don't see any difference between current flow: Once group stage completed click on add new matchday, choose knockout and add teams who progressed to the knockout. Absolutely the same number of clicks and no benefits.


Let's first understand what we are trying to achieve:

The ONLY great thing about this particular feature that I personally imagine is to add ability to display knockout tree before the group stage is finished so site visitors can see 1. what teams are already qualified and were are they situated inside knockout tree. 2. To see who they possibly going to play with in future.

So picture that I'd like to achieve is looks like this:

62b544e1dfd65fe42b07f417dfe8754b

At this stage we can show empty knockout but it looks weird without teams and information inside.


The other thing to improve is to make it fully automatic but as you see we find too many questions here to progress with this particular improvement.

photo
1

Ah I see, agree with you there is no advantage, so why not try using a Letter-Number match with text string at set up time, as it would not matter how many teams, groups or combinations of qualifiers you had and would be automatic.

Example

6 Groups of 4 teams, top two qualify along with the 4 best in third place and we know the structure of who plays where in knock-out stage (top Group A v second Group C etc).

A1-4, B1-4, C1-4, D1-4, E1-4, F1-4 for Group Ref and Knockout stage is numbers 1-16

At Set Up, Season Admin matches the Group Ref and KO Numbers, so based on the image in your post, assuming Arsenal was in Group C, would be:

C1-1, B1-2, A1-3, G2-4

The match up strings would be just as you have them, so B1 string is '1st Place Group B' and these would appear in the KO boxes until a team qualifies, allowing people to see the KO phase.

When a team Qualifies (add a Qualified option into the Fixtures/Played field in Matchday settings) the Fixture/Played/Qualified setting in the match they qualify is turned to Qualified and as soon as that happens the string turns to the team name, so in this example C1-1 would change from '1st Place Group C' to Arsenal.

The C1 is not linked to Arsenal, just whatever team name appears in the C1 position and has qualified, so if Arsenal qualified as top of the group with one match to go and lose their last game to qualify in position C2 (which if it was C2-7), their name would now appear is position 7 in the knockout stage.

Third Place

There are 6 third places but only 4 qualify, so the initial match up is A3-P, B3-P, C3-P, D3-P, E3-P, F3-P where P is the Play-Off Ref for the 4 places P1, P2, P3, P4 (in this case 'Best 4 from 6 in Third Place') that are matched with 4 KO numbers, so the 'Best 4....' string appears until 4 of the six A3-F3 are marked as qualified, when it changes to their names.

To keep everything automatic, when a team with a P GroupRef is marked as Qualified in the Matchday, allow the P ref to be changed or linked to P1, P2, P3 or P4 so that they appear in the right KO box.

Coding

The coding sets everything up at the start, the season admin matches the group ref to KO numbers, enters the playoff text and matches the P to KO numbers and everything is set.

The Group and KO Stages will automatically adjust as teams qualify and everyone can see clearly what is happening and Joomsport only need to make one coding set up for all combinations of teams and groups and types of qualification.

Any thoughts? Does this solve the problem?

photo
1

Not to disregard anyones opinion or really discourage anything, please don't get me wrong at all and there is a great discssion going on and always aprreciate those interaction of thoughts yet; i really don't see any automation is really needed at this point, it would only look like make things a lot more complex and it may end a lot more restrictive than once thought it would for different kinds of process that many others do on the way.

As i use much of the group stage and then elemination myself, i see no problems with the way the current structure simply by manual tree creation and then go on..

Just my 2 cents. :)

photo
1

It is a fair point onlinelig, any suitable* solution should have an Automatic KO View Yes/No button at Season level to avoid being restrictive (Automatic KO View can obviously be any descriptive text).

*Suitable is one that beardev believes will not make the user process or coding far too complicated and/or restrictive.